Why do some players not realize that they are not up to standard anymore

Forum » Rugby » Why do some players not realize that they are not up to standard anymore

Nov 07, 2019, 20:43

I always admire a player like Beast who said enough is enough and call it a day when he was in tio class performance and do not want his reputation spoilt by staying on beyond their sell-by dates.   We had so many players who did stay on beyond the date they should have retired and then damage their reputations as top class players,


Bu the problem is not confined to SA as is evident from the following article in News24:-


Johnny Sexton said the disappointment of Ireland exiting the Rugby World Cup at the quarter-final stage will remain with him and his team-mates for the rest of their lives.

The 34-year-old - whose underwhelming performance in the 46-14 thrashing by New Zealand summed up Ireland's poor showing - denied the Irish had cracked under the pressure.

Ireland had looked certainties last year to reach at least the semi-finals for the first time after achieving the Six Nations Grand Slam for only the third time in their history and going on to beat the All Blacks for the first time at home.

However, their performances in Japan - losing to the hosts in the pool stage and then the humbling at the hands of the All Blacks - reflected a notable decline in their form through the year.

Sexton was emblematic of the loss of form rarely reaching the heights that had seen him scoop the World Player of the Year award for 2018 when Ireland handler Joe Schmidt was Coach of the Year.

"Yeah, it'll be raw for four years," said Sexton at the launch of this season's European Champions Cup in Cardiff.

"It'll be raw for lads that go to the next World Cup, for the lads that don't, for the rest of their careers, for the rest of their lives really."

Sexton, who was at the launch representing Leinster with whom he has won the trophy four times, said there was no escaping how to describe their campaign.

"As a failure," he said.

"You can have opinions on why but it is a failure.

"We didn't do what we wanted in the Six Nations.

"We didn't do what we wanted in the World Cup so there is no other way to look at it."

Sexton confirmed the Irish Rugby Football Union (IRFU) were going to ask an outside company to review the campaign and ask all involved their opinion.

"What won't happen is no one will be thrown under the bus," he said.

"There's no one person at fault for this, there was no one person you can point the finger at."

Despite the disappointment Sexton said he had not thought about retirement and wanted to carry on as long as he remained fit and his coaches at Leinster and Ireland deemed him up to the task.

"I am contracted for this season and for next season," he said.

"My body feels great. I am obsessed with trying to play for as long as I can.

"There have been plenty of 37-year-olds (Sexton will be 38) going to Rugby World Cups and I would love to add my name to that list.

"But, there are lots of things that have to happen."

Leinster begin their European campaign with a home tie against Italian side Treviso. Northampton Saints and Lyon are the other teams in Pool 1.

So lets face facts - the 34 year old Sexton was by some distance the worst performing flyhalf in the WC.  Instead of bowing out gracefully he still want to contnue playing for Ireland.  






 

Nov 07, 2019, 20:43

I always admire a player like Beast who said enough is enough and call it a day when he was in tio class performance and do not want his reputation spoilt by staying on beyond their sell-by dates.   We had so many players who did stay on beyond the date they should have retired and then damage their reputations as top class players,


Bu the problem is not confined to SA as is evident from the following article in News24:-


Johnny Sexton said the disappointment of Ireland exiting the Rugby World Cup at the quarter-final stage will remain with him and his team-mates for the rest of their lives.

The 34-year-old - whose underwhelming performance in the 46-14 thrashing by New Zealand summed up Ireland's poor showing - denied the Irish had cracked under the pressure.

Ireland had looked certainties last year to reach at least the semi-finals for the first time after achieving the Six Nations Grand Slam for only the third time in their history and going on to beat the All Blacks for the first time at home.

However, their performances in Japan - losing to the hosts in the pool stage and then the humbling at the hands of the All Blacks - reflected a notable decline in their form through the year.

Sexton was emblematic of the loss of form rarely reaching the heights that had seen him scoop the World Player of the Year award for 2018 when Ireland handler Joe Schmidt was Coach of the Year.

"Yeah, it'll be raw for four years," said Sexton at the launch of this season's European Champions Cup in Cardiff.

"It'll be raw for lads that go to the next World Cup, for the lads that don't, for the rest of their careers, for the rest of their lives really."

Sexton, who was at the launch representing Leinster with whom he has won the trophy four times, said there was no escaping how to describe their campaign.

"As a failure," he said.

"You can have opinions on why but it is a failure.

"We didn't do what we wanted in the Six Nations.

"We didn't do what we wanted in the World Cup so there is no other way to look at it."

Sexton confirmed the Irish Rugby Football Union (IRFU) were going to ask an outside company to review the campaign and ask all involved their opinion.

"What won't happen is no one will be thrown under the bus," he said.

"There's no one person at fault for this, there was no one person you can point the finger at."

Despite the disappointment Sexton said he had not thought about retirement and wanted to carry on as long as he remained fit and his coaches at Leinster and Ireland deemed him up to the task.

"I am contracted for this season and for next season," he said.

"My body feels great. I am obsessed with trying to play for as long as I can.

"There have been plenty of 37-year-olds (Sexton will be 38) going to Rugby World Cups and I would love to add my name to that list.

"But, there are lots of things that have to happen."

Leinster begin their European campaign with a home tie against Italian side Treviso. Northampton Saints and Lyon are the other teams in Pool 1.

So lets face facts - the 34 year old Sexton was by some distance the worst performing flyhalf in the WC.  Instead of bowing out gracefully he still want to contnue playing for Ireland.  






 

Nov 07, 2019, 22:29

Like a washed up boxer stepping into the ring for that last payday. It's a shame when they do, Ali for example was long past it, the reasons I'm sure are mixed but Habana and Amla in cricket didn't retire at the top of their game. There are several examples in numerous sports who went the same way.

Nov 07, 2019, 23:33

There is no reason to stop at your peak. Keep on until you are not needed anymore. Rugby is these playes' jobs...if the coaches still see value in them and the club owners still want to pay for their services, it would be stupid to stop. You don't need to be at your peak to add value.

Nov 08, 2019, 14:59

Draad  

I am afraid you may get our message wrong.   I think when deterioration in performance becomes evident the Coaches often select players on reputation and not performance and in the end the teams get hurt.   In the case of Habana playing for Toulon became unplayable and the Toulon coach dropped him from selection.

My problem is that some coaches ends up regarding reputation more important than performance and do not do their proper duty to protect the team.   Players also do not need to retire when in top form - but some players realize they are not going to maintain that standard and should rather retire so as not to let teams down.   

What is really lunatic is to call back  retired players to play test rugby again.   That was really prevalent in the Meyer era and it let the players down from a reputation perspective,  as well as the team.   Once a player decides to retire from test rugby - let him stay retired.           

Nov 08, 2019, 15:48

Mike, I agree...some players stay too long, but players go through loss of form and then regain it again...it's difficult to know exactly when the end is nigh...or there.

Nov 08, 2019, 16:05

You cant judge looking from the outside in when it comes to this. Correlation doesn't equal causation, so if an older player is playing badly it isn't because of their age in most cases. Now if you were part of the inner circle that sees the player day-in-day-out you can chip in.



Nov 08, 2019, 16:11

Once a player lose form badly and he is over the age of 30-31 it is hard to recover same and rarely happens.   

Nov 08, 2019, 16:20

That statement is going to come back to bite you.

Nov 08, 2019, 16:43

Tom Brady

Nov 08, 2019, 16:55

clevermike

Hall Of Fame

38773 posts

"Nov 08, 2019, 16:11

Once a player lose form badly and he is over the age of 30-31 it is hard to recover same and rarely happens.|"

Jaaaaa, Ou Maaike. Your prejudice knows no boundaries. You don't give it a second thought when any player wants to keep giving it a go. You just, immediately, launch one personal attack after the other. 

A prime example is the number of bombs you dropped on Duane Vermeulen some time ago. Interesting how awfully silent you have been about him in 2019 RWC.

Nov 08, 2019, 17:00

Tiger Woods.

Nov 08, 2019, 18:54

What about Watson when he won the world singles lawn bowls.

Golf and bowls do not demand the same physical output such as rugby, soccer, cricket, ice hockey and a few other sports.

That is why the older sportsman who played these physical sports end up playing golf, darts and writing books.

If Tiger had played any of these sports he would not still be playing, but thankfully he plays golf and is one of the best ever alongside guys like Player, Els, Hogan just to name a few.

Physical sports damage the body permanently and the players suffer the pain of those injuries long after retiring.



Nov 08, 2019, 19:16

Roger Federer.....Justin Gatlin.....Victor  Matfield

Nov 08, 2019, 19:20

Tom Brady, Brett Favre, Schalk Brits... the list goes on. 

Nov 08, 2019, 19:39

No Mozart

We are talking here of contact sports so Federer and Gatlin are not in contention.    Matfield was a serious disappointment when eh came back from retirement and he did damage to his reputation.  Sad - but a fact.

AO

Lets stick to RUGBY  please.   Although Brits did get playing time during the minion matches,  he was more of an advisor than a player in the WC this year.    He never played in key games in the WC.   Under the circumstances I would never say he was a top  class player at the age of 38.   

Nov 08, 2019, 19:44

“ Lets stick to RUGBY please.”

Yeah, let’s. Duane Vermeulen.

Nov 08, 2019, 19:47

"the minion matches"

:D

Nov 08, 2019, 20:44

Ceradyne

Sure  Fine at 33  but not likely to improve but rather deteriorate sooner rather than later.  

The prime rugby performances ages are  between 25 and 30 years of age.     

Nov 08, 2019, 20:51

“ Posted by: clevermike (38777 posts) Nov 08, 2019, 20:44

Ceradyne

Sure Fine at 33 but not likely to improve but rather deteriorate sooner rather than later.

The prime rugby performances ages are between 25 and 30 years of age. ”

There we go again. The normal obfuscation again. I was talking on the shyte you dumped over Duane Vermeulen about his age prior to the RWC and now, since the start of the RWC, you have gone all silent about Duane.

Nov 09, 2019, 01:53

"Golf and bowls do not demand the same physical output such as rugby, soccer, cricket, ice hockey and a few other sports."

True, if Tiger had played a more physical sport he would not be around like he is right now.

Nov 09, 2019, 04:56

42 years of age as a QB is rather impressive. Brady is in a game considerably more physical than rugby. 

Nov 09, 2019, 05:06

Covered in protective clothing like is weirdly funny.  An American once told me that the rugby players are mad not to wear protective clothing like the Americans do,

Be it as it may - this is a discussion on rugby players -  not any other code of sport.   

Nov 09, 2019, 05:11

You are always clad in ignorance. Spot the Brady and get a cookie.



Nov 09, 2019, 05:33

Still not Rugby Union at all being the discussion topic. .   Anyway watch the helmets and should padding and other "armour" as well.   Stupid - this was about Sexton and other RUGBY  players - not anything else.  

Nov 09, 2019, 05:39

I was responding to the subject of age. In any case, rugby being a comparatively soft sport means the beatings 42 year old Brady takes is rather impressive. His offensive line this year is even worse than usual, which is saying something. Nice of you to attempt a diversion after you lost the exchange. It's easier to dodge a punch by avoiding confrontation than after it hits your face. :D 

Nov 09, 2019, 11:07

And still Ou Maaikie is avoiding the kak he dumped on RUGBY PLAYER Duane Vermeulen like the plague. Yet he has no problem shooting his mouth off about Tiger Woods, Tom Brady and NFL protective clothing.

Nov 09, 2019, 11:11

Not only was Thor great, he was by far the best loosie in the knockout rounds for the Boks. Imagine that, Beast, Thor and Louw, three often maligned players who saved our World Cup. Lügnerin said it would never be done. Everyone knew that they should have retired last year, or even earlier than that. 

Nov 09, 2019, 12:13

Do not lie AO - I never said that in fact Vermeulen did play well - bar in the NZ game where he was really sub-standard.   Vermeulen was good - but not better than Du Toit in the RR games.   Louw was insignificant in all games he played in the RC and definitely not even remotely comparable with the rest of the loosies.   

By the way I was scathing about Vermeulen ducking out of the RC in 2018 and he was not really all that hot in the EOYT.   Same can be said about the RC and pre-WC games, but eh lifted himself in the WC and for that one should admire him.   .  

So where are we going from here?   Start talking the truth and we may get somewhere.     

Nov 09, 2019, 14:29

Ou Maaikie's pearls of wisdom, re Duane Vermeulen:

May 2018

"He is not the player we got used to prior to the WC and his expected performances in the June tests is likely to cause his demise as Springbok player in future."

A year later and he changed his tune slightly:

"May 19, 2019, 11:09

I frankly do not have the answer about the issue of the no 8, but thin that Vermeulen should be in the WC squad - where  he could be an impact player from the bench in some games.   He should be used very sparingly in whatever games he played in"

In 2017, Mark Keohane wrote an article, following an interview with Rassie, in which he called for Duane and Fransie to be called up for the 2019 RWC. 

Ou Maaikie's response:

"This is as near to BS as the coke snifter ever wrote."

July 2019 after the draw against the ABs:

"8  Duane Vermeulen    -  3

Worst player was Vermeulen followed by a host others who did preciously little during the game and when eh did he was a  liability.  The goodhue try came from a Vermeulen bugger-up."

More from the same thread:

"How many more bugger-ups did Vemeulen made and he got a 7 - madness.  He was personally responsible for 10 of the 16 AB points.  Should get a 2 for that."

....and

"the deficiency in loosie play - the only player who contribute regularly and top class is Du Toit.-  Kwgga is a work horse, but lack physicality, while Vermeulen''s contribution yesterday as a negative and in most tests under Meyer was minimal"

After the squad was announced:

"Aug 13, 2019, 16:24

Another lie and they keep piling up.     I only criticized some players for underperformance.  

Vermeulen made a terrible mess of the 2nd test and was not good enough in that one - whether you like it or not.  "

In March, Ou Maaikie even accused Duane of cheating or at least came very closed to accuse him of cheating. Be that as it may, Ou Maaikie definitely questioned Vermeulen's integrity.

"Coming back on Tuesday into full training raised a serious question mark about the seriousness of injury on Saturday,    I think it may be that Vermeulen did not put in a credible performance and saw a way out of completing the game.   An injury like he pretended he suffered would have kept any player out for weeks if not months  and the fact is it did not in this case.   We know for a fact that Matfield used the same stunt in the 2015  Super Rugby Season to keep his name in the headlines so as to ensure his selection for the  WC squad in 2015,   Is that what Vermeulen is up to now?.  "

Pakie also picked up on this saying:

"Nice to see one of the standout Boks of the last 6 years now being slandered as a cheat who puts his own ego ahead of his team."

Some more mud throwing:

"CC

I am afraid  that is what is going on in the case of Vermeulen - though I did put it as bluntly as you did,   I do not know why players want to end their careers playing in WC's and often enough use reputation and not performance as a means to get into the squad,  

In the end they are often passengers in the WC squad if the squad selection by Meyer in 2015 are borne in mind.   There were quite of number of players who were on the bench  or not be on the bench at all - with the result that many players had to play in every test played in the WC.   Easy to blame those unfortunates who had no rest games in the series at all."

And then he unequivocally voiced his disdain for even having Vermeulen in the RWC squad:

"Nobody said he is a cheat - he is just on an ego-trip to ensure he gets  into the WC squad based on his reputation.    Hope Erasmus does not fall for it like the stone coach did in 2015."

There are many more where these few came from. 

Nov 09, 2019, 18:30

American football lasts about 3 hours or more per game with stoppages for just about anything plus regular TV breaks.

Padded to the hilt, head protection gloves that allow them to catch the ball and dancing classes all provided to prevent the so call gladiators from injury and allowing them to celebrate a catch, score or tackle with endless congrats and silly body movements.

Sure some players pick up serious injuries but it as as a result of the head gear they wear and are allowed to use as a battering ram.

Players like Brady are an exception plus who would not be playing at his age for a reported $50 million per season (of about 18 - 20 games) plus endorsements.

Any injuries he has sustained are as a result of (finger cramp or sprain) counting his money plus weak knees carrying all that money to the bank.

But to get back on topic we are talking sport here not MOON WALKING.


Nov 09, 2019, 18:43

AJ, you are commenting on something you do not understand. Whether or not you like the sport is up to you, the reality is that this is a significantly more physical sport. Rugby is very soft by comparison. Claiming that injuries only occur because of their gear is a fallacy. Where's your evidence? Note I have been following this sport almost as long as I have been alive. Using helmets to launch into players? That's illegal. It has been illegal since the late 70s at the latest. Aside from the head and shoulders, there isn't much protection in reality. Minimal covering when they are playing in blizzards either. Hits so hard, that giant TE Gronk suffered a herniated disc from a regulation shot he took in the middle of the chest! How about Andrew Luck playing on with a lacerated kidney and liver? Or Ray Lewis, playing on with triceps he tore off the bone? Edelman soldering on with a more severe concussion than that which effectively ended Lambie's career? I can go on and on, and on, and on. 

Nov 09, 2019, 19:28

I am not in the least interested in American football.  If you want to discuss it go to Other Sports on this site.    

Nov 09, 2019, 19:32

No. if you can discuss rain, gardening, electricity, life stories, personal attacks, politics etc in this section, then I'll discuss what I want. Your arrogance knows no bounds, issue demands on a forum as though you were the site owner or crooked moderator. 

Nov 09, 2019, 19:53

Aug, But to get back on topic.......not knocking the game but not many players are able to play on beyond their mid 30's due to injuries or performance at that stage.

The physical damage sustained in their playing career takes a toll on the body and mind for ever and ever.

I have many ex-players in my circle of friends and running clubs who remain active in one way or another and most are nursing a permanent physical injury of some form.

The body can only stand so much hammering before it crumbles.

Nov 09, 2019, 20:10

I think Brady has shown athletes that they can live better lives whilst expanding their potential into much older age. The expectation is to be a broken down mess, it doesn't have to be that way. With regards to the older players in this year's team, they were grossly undervalued. The youth card was debunked under Meyer and ultimately bit him in the backside. We should have learned then and there. When we faced serious opposition, where were the likes of Lood, Steph et al? It was the experienced trio of Beast, Thor and Louw who carried us to a WC. Them, and Faf, to his credit. Even Frans, mopping up after a classic Damian gaff to snuff out any possibility of and English uprising. 

 
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