Team for Scotland still has many questionable players

Forum » Rugby » Team for Scotland still has many questionable players

Nov 15, 2018, 16:53

So here we are at the end of Rassie's first year, and much of Rassie's match squad are still trying to establish themselves. Here's the team:

Springboks – 15 Willie le Roux, 14 S’bu Nkosi, 13 Jesse Kriel, 12 Damian de Allende, 11 Aphiwe Dyantyi, 10 Handré Pollard, 9 Embrose Papier, 8 Duane Vermeulen, 7 Pieter-Steph du Toit, 6 Siya Kolisi (c), 5 Franco Mostert, 4 RG Snyman, 3 Frans Malherbe, 2 Malcolm Marx, 1 Steven Kitshoff. Subs: 16 Bongi Mbonambi, 17 Thomas du Toit, 18 Vincent Koch, 19 Lood de Jager, 20 Francois Louw, 21 Ivan van Zyl, 22 Elton Jantjies, 23 Cheslin Kolbe.

This starts with the centre partnership, now at the end of it's 4th Bok season. Face it there is no synergy between these two players and as individuals they haven't grown. Match after match this year they have drowned in good ball with no tangible results.

Then there is Papier, new for this test....but already complicit in the loss to NZ. He is a decent prospect but what exactly does he add. At best he is an unknown.

The tight forwards are fine, but Snyman needs to grasp this opportunity and confirm his early season form, his work off the bench has been disconnected to the team's situation.

Biggest enigma of all is Kolisi who cracked the top 10 in 5 categories in the RC, only to go awol in the two NH tests. He is a total non factor at the contact point....counter rucking or fetching.

And then we get to the bench....Koch and lucky Thomas, suddenly a loosehead again, have not put their scrumming woes behind them. Lomp has been alarmingly feeble.....it's a long time since this player has done diddly in green and gold, not since the USA match at the WC in my view.

And the bench backs are also unknowns. Is Kolbe really going to work out as a test wing? I doubt it. And van Zyl was competent against the Poms, but very minimalist to use an art term.

Which brings us to the enigma of Jantjies. Within inches of blowing the French test....his long touch finder did ultimately win the test. But what happens if we are ahead with 30minutes to go in a key test and Pollard is injured. Jantjies really needs to play a few convincing full tests....but until we are playing Italy or Samoa again, will Rassie take the chance. Scotland clearly seemed too big a risk for him.

Perhaps I'm being a little unfair here....most teams have some questionable players, but it feels like things are still unresolved. In terms of our centres, our loosie combination, our replacement front row and our alternative 10. Those are some pretty big issues.

Nov 15, 2018, 17:29

No country entertains nonentities like South Africa. Look at Jordie Barrett, had he been South African, his error in Wellington would never have been pointed out by our media. The most overtly disastrous mistakes are never pointed out, and are repeated test after test after test. South Africa, at all levels of society, rewards mediocrity and championship mediocrity. There's a bitterness towards excellence. 

Nov 15, 2018, 17:33

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Edited  by

Nov 15, 2018, 17:36

I'm not too sure about that, but it looks impressive...Hugh Jones and WP Nel playing ?

Nov 15, 2018, 18:00

Honestly if Rassie and HM changed their hats, nobody could tell from the playing style of their Bok teams. HM couldn't get over the last hurdle because, other than the rolling maul, we had no scoring play inside the 22....Rassie is in the same boat. If the Willie magic isn't there nothing happens.

We have 'become respected again' because we have gone back to physical rugby'. There is nothing new...and there are these lingering issues about the team.

So far this year cumulatively we lead our opponents....who average a ranking of exactly 5....which is our ranking....by 295 to 290 points. Almost dead even with an exactly fifth ranked opposition.......sounds like our current ranking of 5 is spot on.

Is that the brave new world?

Nov 15, 2018, 18:10

@Herr Draht: This is the best era of Scottish rugby. A potential banana peel. I had us penciled in for two wins at this point, and with the last two tests being the harder games of the tour. The Boks will need to be sharp. I feel that trying to fight fire with fire will Backfire. Do we have the attacking prowess to beat the Scots running the ball? With Papier at 9, it looks like we are going in that direction.

@Moz: I can see numerous differences from Meyer's Boks, but Meyer was saddled with Damian in 2015 due to the injury of Jean and the absence of Frans at the WC. Meyer was more responsive to player performance, making adjustments based on what they could and couldn't do. Rassie has been very slow to catch on. In some cases, the penny has yet to drop. I believe Rassie is the lesser analyst and tactician. He has the tools at hand to deliver more. 

Nov 15, 2018, 18:15

We might be in for a shock come Saturday. Scotland are a fucking menace at the breakdown and their forwards shouldn't be taken lightly. They WILL try stop any momentum we make.

In the backs are the fast, hard Tommy Seymour and Sean Maitland who has a nose like a greyhound for the try line, compliment that with the dangerous running of Hogg and Huw Jones who both have an eye for the gap and pace to exploit it and this could be an exciting game.

Greig Laidlaw has a metronome kick and if the guile Finn Russel goes off, He'll be replaced by Hastings who is sorta their equivalent Willemse.

Scotland could very well do us this weekend.

Nov 15, 2018, 18:16

My problem is there still is no consistent style of play. Against the Poms we played crash ball....against France the weapon of choice was the box kick.

Other than getting turnover balls to our quick wings, I see no attacking ideas.

Nov 15, 2018, 18:38

Mozart

I really am amazed at you not mentioning Du Toit as a weakness in the team.

And then the jargon about De Allende and Kriel having played together for 4  years at center.   So lets see how true that story is,  Before the EC in 2015 the two played together as a combination in 3 tests.   Meyer's game plan in the WC did not allow for any usage of the backline and the center combination of De Allende and Kriel was used in 4 matches  only.

So lets look at the center selections of Coetzee,   In the whole of 2017 and 2018 De Allende and Kriel started as a center combination in 2 tests.   Why did you not check your following statement for correctness:-

"This starts with the centre partnership, now at the end of it's 4th Bok season. Face it there is no synergy between these two players and as individuals they haven't grown. Match after match this year they have drowned in good ball with no tangible results."

Why must I always check your BS for correctness?  Nine tests in three years cannot really match up with the rest of your BS.  

The story about De Jager is another story and can best be described as total BS


Nov 15, 2018, 18:48

Yep xavi, a bunch of terrific backs.....they have traditionally underperformed against the Boks, but they are a better team now.

Nov 15, 2018, 18:57

My day would be made if Allende, Kolisi and Lood never ever again came close to a bok side. What they offer is embarrassing. On the international market they might crack a cap with the USA.

Nov 15, 2018, 18:59

Spectacular Scotty, my second team ATM. 

Nov 15, 2018, 19:08

Let's count them Tokkie....2015,16,17, 18......four seasons.

And Kriel/Allende played together 8 times in 2015 alone.

In 2016 one or the other played in all but one test...although oddly not in combination.

In 2017 they played together once, but one of the pairing started in almost every test.

In 2018 they played together 4 times and in the majority of tests at least one of the pairing played.

So once again....you lie. They have started 13 times for the Boks , and in more than 75% of the tests since 2015 one of the two started.

I am sick of checking your bs arsehole.

Nov 15, 2018, 19:09

BF

My day would be made if Mostert and Louw never play for the Springboks again.   De Jager is ten times the player powder-puff  Mostert would ever be.

I would prefer a better center combination, but at present there is NONE available.  



Nov 15, 2018, 19:17

Mozart

Your effort is very poor to explain the following:-

"This starts with the centre partnership, now at the end of it's 4th Bok season. Face it there is no synergy between these two players and as individuals they haven't grown. Match after match this year they have drowned in good ball with no tangible results."

The emphasis is on CENTER COMBINATION  and as per normal you did not check your facts before writing BS.   I did something clever - I copied your statement and that stopped you from changing your statement.  

Now liar - I never wrote anything about 2018 and where you said four years I mentioned three years.   Please  BSter - an apology will be acceptable.      



Nov 15, 2018, 19:23

Lood is any 10's bitch..... See the poms this year and NZ last 2 min about 4 years ago. Great against 2nd an 3rd tier sides which is why he belongs with the USA. 

Without Louw the French would have won .end of 

With a little help Kolisi can fetched his jersey nothing else.

Nov 15, 2018, 19:29

Lol.:D:D:D

Nov 15, 2018, 19:45

You did something clever....copying the fact that I said the centre partnership is at the end of it's fouth season? And then you claim I'm lying because you decide to leave out one season?

And even then your facts are wrong they played 8 matches together in 2015....not 7.

Over four years we have almost always had Kriel or Allende in the Bok team....and 12 times starting, they have been together. Another 8 times they have been in the same match 23 as sub and starter, and given Kriel has never appeared at 12 to my knowledge....have to have trained and played together there as well.

So they had 20 tests to hone their combination.....way enough to figure things out.

Stop the bs Tokkie.

Nov 15, 2018, 20:47

Oops Mozart - how many times have they played together as a COMBINATION that is the term you used.   Changing the word to partnership does not make a make a huge difference,

However, I deliberately left out the present year because it does add something which I would deal with later on.   Fact is you made a mess of the contribution and is now ducking and diving. 

I did not count in the occasional game where one of them came from the bench and even may have had a twenty minute replacement stint together.  Combinations are not built during bench players coming on.  I admit I miscounted the number of games - it was 8.   5 of those were in the WC where Meyer's game plan cancelled out anything relating to forming and developing center combinations.   There was zero chance that there was any combination building in the WC matches - Meyer's game plan stopped it from ever happening. 

So bearing in mind the real factual situation - the real situation is that up to this year there was no combination being built whatsoever and the real chance of building a combination only started this year - that being the reason why I left this year out.  Furthermore an effort can be made to build combinations during training - but the test is when they have to implement during games.     

Shocking - not so.   I still maintain you will be well-advised to make sure you do not write BS on site - which I had to check and recheck - something you should have done in the first place.

     

Nov 15, 2018, 20:53

FML:'(

Nov 15, 2018, 20:57

Not an unexpected team. At least Rassie doesn't spring left field surprises like Coetzee and Meyer, his teams are very predictable.


Personally I still find it quite hard to get beyond the fact that he didn't include either one of the Du Preez twins in his touring squad but other than that, I think he's done badly with his selections . . . although I also don't know what Jaco Kriel's fitness status is and if anyone was picking Flouw ahead of Jaco Kriel if both were available then I have some serious questions to ask.

Nov 15, 2018, 21:00

Mike the Mosquito living precariously taunting the fly swatter.


Nov 15, 2018, 21:03

Kriel has had a few runs in Ackermans Gloucester but was replaced in the 2nd half last time out. Not sure if it was injury or niggle as he looked ok coming off.

Nov 15, 2018, 21:08

Thanks Xavi. Well if Jaco Kriel is playing and he's still regarded as suplus to requirements behind Francois Louw then Rassie's credibilty is dropping at an alarming rate.

Nov 15, 2018, 21:11

I see the contributions of rugby noobs like Dim-Sum aka Augenoffner still haven't improved beyond posting spiteful and childish little images.

Nov 15, 2018, 21:19

Poor poor AO

When will you grow up?:D:D:D

Nov 15, 2018, 21:28

It's no fun duck hunting when they shoot themselves. :D


Nov 15, 2018, 22:46

Thanks Dim-Sum. You saved me the trouble.

Nov 15, 2018, 22:55

What the bloo blazes does this mean:

'Personally I still find it quite hard to get beyond the fact that he didn't include either one of the Du Preez twins in his touring squad but other than that, I think he's done badly with his selections .'

I guess Currie Cuo either thinks he did well leaving out the Deysel twins or very badly....something other than badly. Or perhaps he just screwed up again.

LMAOFY!

Nov 15, 2018, 23:34

Best Scottish team in history. First time they have ever started as favourites against the Boks, although I do believe the Boks should win.

Jul 16, 2020, 19:39

Lol, interesting retrospect...:D

Jul 16, 2020, 22:00

"Scotland 20-26 South Africa: Handre Pollard scores 18 points as Springboks hold on. South Africa got the better of Scotland for a sixth straight Test after an absorbing match at Murrayfield. The Springboks led 20-17 after a pulsating first half, Jesse Kriel crashing over early on and Handre Pollard adding a second try."

Jul 17, 2020, 07:05

Draad

Why did you bring this item back,   Much of the drivel was sorted out in 2019.  

Mozart and AO obviously attacked Erasmus at the end of 2018 and the team Mozart Posted needs further analysis looking at the key matches of the WV series:-

Springboks – 15 Willie le Roux, 14 S’bu Nkosi, 13 Jesse Kriel, 12 Damian de Allende, 11 Aphiwe Dyantyi, 10 Handré Pollard, 9 Embrose Papier, 8 Duane Vermeulen, 7 Pieter-Steph du Toit, 6 Siya Kolisi (c), 5 Franco Mostert, 4 RG Snyman, 3 Frans Malherbe, 2 Malcolm Marx, 1 Steven Kitshoff. Subs: 16 Bongi Mbonambi, 17 Thomas du Toit, 18 Vincent Koch, 19 Lood de Jager, 20 Francois Louw, 21 Ivan van Zyl, 22 Elton Jantjies, 23 Cheslin Kolbe.

I highlighted the starting players on the Italy match and the play-offs.   Now who vanished from the scene to start with:-

11 Aphiwe Dyanty  -  drug problem - replaced by Mapimpi.  Embrose Papier - replaced by Jantjies.   21 Ivan van Zyl, - replaced by Reinach.   

  Only four players was not in the squad that went to the WC - the above three and Francois Steyn,  

Additions were 3 Eben Etzebeth - rested - and Tendai Matiwarira Rested.  Some of  the starting players against Scotland was in key matches off the bench,   So from the 23 players in the team against Scotland three was not WC gold medal winners.   One was an enforced replacement.   The other two were replaced by better players.

The Erasmus squad struggled a bit in 2018 - but the away win against the AB's and the series win against England were positive signs.   Erasmus was forced to use a wide range of players in 2018 trying to determine usability,     A lot of those layers did not make the grade.   Among those were the Du Preez's and Esterhuizen, 

As to the center combination of which a lot was written De Allende was a key player in the WC and since Kriel was injured early in the WC series he was replaced by Am.  Both De Allende and Am were exceptional centers in the WC.

So the question is who of the Gold Medal winners will not play for SA again,   My list includes the following:-

Tendai Mtawarira, Francois Louw, Franco Mostert, Francois Steyn and Elton Jantjies,   Of these three are retirees and two are not up to standard on test level with stronger players in contention.        

When it comes to coaching and the players Mozart and AO have never been right,               




 

Jul 17, 2020, 08:48

This is an interesting piece Herr Draht. Damian was befuddled in this game. It was essentially Pollard who turned the game in the Bok's favour. 

This tour would see Rassie give up on certain ploys and players. Most notably was the shift to a more conservative pallete of ideas and moving the ball more through 13. The tour wasn't particularly good, a two turnover Louw saved us against France which somewhat glossed over the cracks. The same weaknesses would persist until the semi final the following year, and we would see an even more limited and regressive gameplan; the same faces faltered. 


Jul 17, 2020, 09:52

AO

The same faces faltered when demolishing the English side who beat the AB's easily in the WC. 

De Allende was excellent in the WC and the situation is that you are too stupid to realize that.   The fact is that he was always  5 times better than your hero Esterhuizen who did not even make the WC squad,  

.   .     

Jul 17, 2020, 16:03

What a prescient string....the Erasmus u-turn back to traditional Bok rugby was confirmed at the WC. That, Pollard’s excellence, good execution, weak opposition and a bit of luck  was enough for a WC win.



Jul 17, 2020, 17:43

Mozart

Please describe what you call traditional SA Rugby.  At one stage under Meyer you describe it as part of the 10 man syndrome - so some enlightenment will be appreciated. 

By the way England beat New Zealand easily - so what was weak about the opposition?      

Jul 17, 2020, 20:19

New Zealand were arrogant because they saw the Poms as baitfish....the Poms saw us as baitfish. Neither team was mentally into their  respective games.


As for traditional Bok rugby...I have explained this to you so many times I have no enthusiasm for doing it again....get yourself a video of the first test against the ABs in 1960. Then ask me to explain the bits that you don’t get.

Jul 17, 2020, 21:37

The Boks beating England was fairly easy to predict. They've been the best match up for us out of the big 5 NH sides. We could do to them what New Zealand couldn't. 

Jul 17, 2020, 23:39

No Mozart

You used to say that traditional SA Rugby requires a kicking flyhalf 90% of the time p in other words virtually only a 10 man game.   The Springboks at present does not play that kind of game under Erasmus - so have you changed your tune since the Meyer era,

As to the psychological aspect - if that was the case why did both collapsed and the fact is that the NZ panel discussers did not give the AB's a chance against the Springboks playing the way they did.

Fact is they were outwitted and outplayed comprehensively by the Springboks in every phase of play hence the massive size of the points gap.   

Just one example - look at the preceding play leading to the penalty that  let to a score of 18-9.   Never used a driving maul  on test level done before,   And the two tries scored was never doen before by SA in a WB Final    


Jul 18, 2020, 01:47

José's Boks are the first Bok team I have ever seen that can have a three man overlap outside the opposition 22 and still kick to the corner. Any sniff of slow ball and they kick. It's that simple. And to top it off, these are the worst kicks in their volume of shallow aimless kicking I have ever seen. Two metre hoists, for what? Or all of those kicks that go backwards for negative yards? Laughable. José is the very king of limited "10 man" rugby. José's teams have never in his entire coaching career been able to use the ball. Every element of success is directly tied to Nienaber. Without his timid friend, he doesn't have a coaching career. Simples.

Jul 18, 2020, 05:38

Munster director of rugby Rassie Erasmus and defence coach Jacques Nienaber at Thomond Park, Limerick in October 2017. Photograph: Billy Stickland/Inpho

Munster director of rugby Rassie Erasmus and defence coach Jacques Nienaber at Thomond Park, Limerick in October 2017.


Jacques Nienaber (left) was late last week named as the new Bok coach, replacing Rassie Erasmus. Photo: Sydney Mahlangu/BackpagePix

Jacques Nienaber (left) was late last week named as the new Bok coach, replacing 

All I can say is thank heavens for Nienaber.


Jul 18, 2020, 18:40

Priceless these old posts. 

Rooitwit clearly has no clue but is he the only one? 

Salute the man who got it right about Rassie from the very beginning. 

Who got it right about Steph and Allende. 

Take a bow Beeno. 

 
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