So Berry agreed with 17 of Rassie’s points

Forum » Rugby » So Berry agreed with 17 of Rassie’s points

Nov 18, 2021, 13:01

Go figure

Nov 18, 2021, 13:28

Lots of EGG landing on two well know egg magnets! Hahahahaha

You can safely assume there were in fact more than 17.

Nov 18, 2021, 13:36

So lets just accept for a moment Berry made 17 errors in 35 minutes of ply. ie an error every 2 minutes.

Now you can be sure there were other errors he is not coming clean on.



Nov 18, 2021, 13:38

So glad to see Rassie and SA Rugby will appeal the decision.

I would like them to sue in a court of law!

Nov 18, 2021, 13:53

To quote Mozzzz - "I’m sure Berry simply pointed out what I did….perhaps 3 or 4 of the calls were wrong with the benefit of slo mo hindsight".

BWAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA  - Berry admitted to 17 errors. the IRB said 23 and Rassie listed 26.

Lets go with the IRB as the most likely number of errors.

Now tell me you want this shocking display of reffing to go unpunished. Berry is concerned about these facts coming to light as they effect his reputation. Well they should!

Crash go mozzzz and the org once again. Its becoming a daily occurrence.



The EGG has Landed!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Nov 18, 2021, 16:07

Where is the transparency about the ref, he is no acting if he is a victim. What about when it was a clear knock on, laughed in Kolisi face and told him it was not a knock on?!

John Smit best line was it look like the Jones and Berry were on a date!

That alone  should be enough to make your blood boil. Yes, Referees get a wrong from time to time, but to be blatantly biased,  make if your errors mean nothing. 

Would you let a surgeon make a few errors, no. 

He is not an amateur, paid professional

Nov 18, 2021, 16:08

I like Phil Kearns tweet saying Berry should take a break and go ref club rugby as he won’t be missed at test level

Nov 18, 2021, 16:54

So even assuming Berry wasn’t just trying to throw Harrassmiss a bone… .Harrassmiss was wrong in 19 of his 36 calls. A higher rate of error than Berry despite the benefit of slow motion review for Rassie and real time decision making with all it’s challenges for Berry.

How humiliating…..hahaha. You guys just keep putting both feet in it.

Nov 18, 2021, 17:20

This is just one instance of Berry being corrected in last weekend's game..... there are more

"The TMO was also called into action to determine whether Wales’ left-winger had scored the 73rd minute try which effectively sealed the win.

Berry again did his reputation no favours by asking Terheege to check whether the scorer was onside. He quickly received a response confirming a player cannot be offside chasing his own kick"

Nov 18, 2021, 17:49

If Berry himself admitted to 17 of the calls being incorrect then you can rest assured that this is the minimum figure.

But even if that is the correct figure, it’s one bad call every 4,7 minutes.

Try building up any momentum under those conditions.

All the corporate double-speak and hyperbole present in the report is predictable, telling and disgusting.

Nov 18, 2021, 19:10

The bottom line is that José is the beneficiary of bad calls, not a victim. Los Pumas were reffed out of the game, the Lions had lots go against them, and the Wallabies had to overcome tremendously lopsided periods. In an even remotely "fair" contest, the Lions series is lost, we lose at least one Puma test, we don't beat New Zealand, and we don't beat Wales. I haven't seen it quite like this since 2010, 2011. José has no interest in anything other than trying to get an edge off the field, to benefit on it. Pressure the refs. That's what he accomplished, and that's the end of the matter. Rugby was not the winner. 

Nov 18, 2021, 19:55

Aug

I don’t care if it was the Boks, Lions or the Intergalactic Federation’s team that was on the wrong side of the calls.

If that many incorrect calls are being made, then the deviation away from what the score/result should have been is more than I can stomach.

Let’s assume that Berry made just half that amount of bad/non calls against the Lions in the same game…then we’re at 17 + 8.5 = 25,5 bad/non calls over 80 minutes. An error every 3.1 minutes.

I don’t think that reffing, most of the time, is near to as good as it can be and to have an incorrect call every 3.1 minutes is nothing short of a farce.

Seriously, at some point you’d be asking yourself “What the fuck are we doing here?”

Bad for the game?

Nay, the worst for the game.

Nov 18, 2021, 20:23

We've been through these calls, and as Moz already pointed out, that was not the case. Not really much wiggle room to defend our man Josè. 

Nov 18, 2021, 20:34

Firstly Plum calling them ‘bad’ calls is probably an overstatement. These are calls he was willing to concede….the bad calls he actually tended to make more of.  

Secondly I think he was trying to placate Erasmus. For example the advantage call. The Boks clearly had significant advantage…they made a mistake right after he called it. Erasmus’ argument was for time….that’s nowhere in the rules. 

No need for him to concede that point and in fact stupid given he was dealing with a snake like Erasmus.

So I think the number of clear cut, non grey area mistakes was far lower.

And some of the mistakes like the Watson spear tackle was down to the TMO who had every opportunity and all the resources necessary to call it.

So this may not have been the most accurate team, but given the complexity of rugby rules you are going to have 30plus calls in the grey area. We can resolve some of those by going to video reviews….but a try like the Zammit try for Wales last Saturday is frankly still unclear after extensive reviews.

Almost every try scoring build up or card offense are video reviewed. And so the result is unlikely to be changed by random error. Consistent error on one side is not random it’s biased. I don’t believe this was the case with Berry although his TMO a South African is less clear.

We can simplify rules or we can make the game a forensic marathon…but personally I think we are about in the sweet spot for rugby as a sport and an entertainment.

Nov 18, 2021, 20:44

Well when the guy blowing the whistle during a game at this level  admits that he made 17 incorrect calls when confronted with the video and is now claiming that the video will ruin his career.

The IRB listed 23 incorrect calls and that is the number I would go with.

Well he should never be allowed to ref another game unless it is at Pub rugby level.

Shocking that he has not been suspended or fired.

What a balls up the IRB has made of this whole situation.

Pleased to read that the ruling is being appealed. 

Nov 18, 2021, 20:59

The IRB listed 23 incorrect calls…where?

Nov 18, 2021, 21:11

Last I checked there were 26 calls the fact that Berry is stupid enough to concede on 17 is mind boggling

As a test ref making 17 errors in one game is unacceptable and that’s only the 17 he has no counter to, what about the rest.

Good on Rassie for exposing this unacceptable incompetence made that much worse by virtue of the fact that the useless TMO did not correct the poor calls

Nov 18, 2021, 21:46

I hear what you are saying, Moz.

There are obviously tons of variables.

But for every instance where it’s tough to make the right call even after extensive review, there is another where even at first glance it’s clear what the correct decision would have been. Those are the ones that sour fans, players and coaches.

I doubt that most fans deride the decisions where it’s obviously difficult and, due to lack of or poor angles, the TMO or ref rely on protocol and/or instinct.

Take for the example the Mapimpi pull-back. It needed one look and nothing nothing more. I don’t know exactly what the rule says but I’m sure that it doesn’t place a time limitation on how long a player without the ball should be held back for before the whistle is blown.

So how does an error like that occur?

One isn’t left with many options. Really, it’s either incompetence or bias. Neither of which is acceptable…and cost 7 points in a game where the Lions beat the Boks by 6.

I have to stress, I’m only using the Boks v Lions example as those are the games being discussed. It doesn’t matter to me which team is on the receiving end of bad calls, I don’t like any of it.

For me, we’re not in the sweet spot yet. I think further and better implementation of technology is necessary and could alleviate much of the TMO speculation while also saving time. It’s probably inevitable that machine learning will become more prevalent in refereeing, and I can’t wait.

I recently saw a video that showed how software and machine learning could be used to score high diving…the results are nothing short of spectacular. One of the standouts was how often the scorers failed to accurately judge entries. Yes, this was only used to judge form in what is a short and solo event, but it’s not a million miles away from being implementable in team sports.

Consider that most team sports video games already run programs that track when fouls occur. There are games, going back over a decade, that incorporate real physics engines IE everything is happening on the fly, with no pre-recorded animations or actions…and the “ref software” always makes the correct call without fail.

That’s probably where we’ll see the biggest improvement in rugby reffing…one day.

Nov 18, 2021, 21:49

Aug, I have to ask, did you start calling Rassie Jose as a result of me calling him that at some point?

If so, I want royalties boet.

Nov 18, 2021, 21:54

I think it's time we had a video of the biased calls for the Boks. Trust me, that'd be a far, far more sinister viewing. Throat slams, shoulder charges to heads, deliberate knock ons, the belly-flopping at scrum time, the 9 forward passes. one by Faf for a try against Australia, skew lineout throws, flopping on the ruck, obstructing chasers, knock ons uncalled (one for a try, off Wiese's shoulder), taking players out of the air, spear tackles, mysterious streams of penalties one way in favour of the Boks. The list goes on and on and on and on. This reality makes any and every attempted defence of José utterly ridiculous. The Boks are, as I have said, the 2010 All Blacks. 

@Plum: I have never seen you call him José. I did so as José, quite sadly, became a narcissist with a model that is outdated and doesn't work. In truth, it's a compliment to Rassie, as he will never achieve the standards Mourinho himself achieved, of his own work! Rassie leans heavily on the old Krutch.

Nov 18, 2021, 22:06

Haha convergent evolution it is then.

Nov 18, 2021, 22:13

You can do it Aug….it would be a service to our fellow posters.

Nov 18, 2021, 22:15

For the record all we know is 36 calls were submitted by Erasmus and Berry agreed 17 were incorrect.

Nov 19, 2021, 08:09

But even if that is the correct figure, it’s one bad call every 4,7 minutes"

Correct Plum.... however you are being far too generous with the time.

It is actually 2 minutes or 120 seconds for every bad call against the Springboks, that Berry has actually admitted to, in that particular game.

A ref can obviously only make any call whilst the ball is in play, and the ball was only in actual physical play, for 35 minutes of that game.

"Try building up any momentum under those conditions.

Fucking impossible...…. and now that Berry has actually admitted to 17 of these errors.... if anyone thinks those numbers are acceptable for ANY team.....they don't enjoy a fair game of rugga.


Nov 19, 2021, 09:04

Yes, it appears from what is claimed here, some valid and some not so valid that rugby is a game of chance (from the reffing point of view)...has a lottery element . We have always known this to a very minor degree and it's something that can never be 100% and it's understood but when it appears here with a specific individual these figures of errors look ridiculous.

I don't believe in ref bashing but surely there's a line to be drawn somewhere. 

Berry has shown terrible inconsistency, ie laterly in Wales/Fiji game and it rings a bell.

World Rugby (ex IRB) board appears to consist of stuffy, arrogant men with extreme bureaucratic tendancies...long past a true love of the game but control freaks that abuse power to either satisfy control and power and perhaps even feather their nests...who knows but it appears to be.

Nov 19, 2021, 09:30

1) What does WR’s contract with national sides state in terms of dispute resolution and the committees involved in such processes?

2) If the words “independent committee” are used in that context then you’ll probably find that the requirement of “independent” has not been met.

3) Generally, an entity which receives payment from and does business with an organisation, cannot be said be independent from it.

There’s nothing legally complex about what has occurred here and it should be an eye-opener for many as to the way WR see themselves in relation to the game, it’s participators and patrons.

If SARU decide to take on the battle we may see Beaumont resign.

Tip for Saturday…England will be on the receiving end of some the worst reffing we’ve seen this year ;)

Nov 19, 2021, 09:46

What I recall about the bad calls is Rassie's tape had 26, The IRB admitted to 23 and Berry conceded that he had made 17.

Now the chances are there were more than 17 errors made in the 35 minutes the ball was in play. So the Bok were penalized at least one every 2 minutes INCORRECTLY.
I RECALL SEAN FITPATRICK APOLOGISING TO THE BOKS WHEN THEY HAD 21 CALLS AGAINST THEM BY THE REF. Doubtless some of those calls were correct. So this Berry effort is far worse. 
It is Berry who MUST apologize along with the corrupt IRB who refused to be transparent. It is Berry who should be demoted and not ref internationals. It is Berry who has ruined his reputation.

What EVIDENCE is there of any wrong doing by Rassie.
Rassie sue these crooks in a court of law.

Nov 19, 2021, 09:51

"If the words “independent committee” are used in that context then you’ll probably find that the requirement of “independent” has not been met."

You would also think that this "independent" committee could have very easily and quite safely have kept this final outcome under wraps, within their tight circle...….until this last game of the season is over.... but no, they just had to release this outcome now.

Anyone who thinks or believes otherwise is just delusional

I may not always like the man himself.... but Keo go it absolutely 100% spot on …...when he tweeted this a few days before the actual outcome came out.

"Don’t be shocked if @WorldRugby sends out a findings statement on @RassieRugby hearing a day before Sat #springboks v @EnglandRugby Test …just to add disruption to @Springboks

— Mark Keohane (@mark_keohane) November 15, 2021"

Nov 19, 2021, 09:59

"Both the NZRFU and South African Rugby Union have said there was no conspiracy involved in the e-mail in which the Anzac partners agreed to "teach the Japies (South Africans ) a lesson."


from 2000 already.

Nov 19, 2021, 10:01

Agree DA. Having the hearing and releasing findings just before the England match has ensured a very nasty atmosphere and probably a very nasty game. It was DELIIBERATE.

Go to appeal and if no satisfaction sue in a court of law. 

DA have you seen any evidence of wrong doing by Rassie being presented?


Nov 19, 2021, 10:21

"DA have you seen any evidence of wrong doing by Rassie being presented?"

Every single piece of "evidence" so far.... has all been hearsay or unproven...… which in most instances... whether it be a criminal court of law... or a disciplinary / performance hearing..... does not, or should not, hold much water when determining any kind of sanction to be imposed.

They probably used the "balance of probabilities" to rule against Rassie, but with these type of serious charges in particular..... and the kind of sanction that it could involve.....it should never be presented, or accepted.

I'll be very honest here..... if it was proven with indisputable facts and proof, that Rassie leaked that video for any reason, I would want him sanctioned to the full extreme of the laws involved in the WR organization..... even including a lifetime ban..... I seriously would, because it goes against everything I believe in.

However, at the same time.....what has happened to Rassie and how he has been treated, also goes against everything I believe in, and I think him and SA rugby are being shafted..... and this latest release of the hearing's findings right before such a very crucial game, when they could have held onto it .... just until Sunday even.... clearly proves it to me...…..so I 100% fully support their cause against WR


Nov 19, 2021, 11:01

DA

WR are probably aware of the optics of all of this.

And as we have seen, they care for themselves before anything else. 

This is why I am calling Saturday's game in favour of the Boks with the England side being the sacrificial lambs used to cover WR's arses.

IE Look at how many calls went their way this weekend but they never complained.

I'm going with 65% to 35% penalty count in favour of the Boks.

Let us see if my crystal ball is still working.



Nov 19, 2021, 11:08

DA face up to certain facts. The IRB has done practically nothing about bad reffing. Rassie apparently has sent in may clips like this and apparently got no reply.

Secondly, it is very obvious a lot of bad reffing goes on and its being happening for years. 

Now if the above is true I have no problem with Rassie leaking the clip as it has highlighted just how bad things are. Further the response of the IRB has again proven they cover these things up. 

The complainant who has been wronged gets censured and the perpetrator, Berry, is cast as the victim.

This is outrageous!

Something had to blow this up and I would be even more appreciative of Rassie if he did it. As things stand his lawyer said he didnt so I cant as yet give Rassie full credit.

I suspect Berry is the leaker but no proof of this yet.

Nov 19, 2021, 12:36

 "I have no problem with Rassie leaking the clip as it has highlighted just how bad things"

"Something had to blow this up and I would be even more appreciative of Rassie if he did it"

If Rassie had consistently sent 10 previous videos requesting detailed feedback, so that he could address and improve his team's penalty count for repeated infringements, and he got absolutely no response or assistance in that regard at all.... over a long period of time..... then yes, I absolutely agree with going to the media, because it would have been a deliberate act by WR, as well as blatant bias or favouritism …. or just downright incompetence...….but we do not know that as fact, and it is very unlikely that it happened like that, because it was never mentioned as being a problem before.

I am saying that if Rassie released this tape for malicious reasons, when he would and could have received feedback within a reasonable timeframe, then no, I do not agree with it at all and he should be penalized to the full extent of their laws.

Nov 19, 2021, 13:21

So there is a contradicting statement in the report, Berry tol Peyper that Rassie was threatening him with a leak if he did not respond but Peyper said it never came up and that Berry should respond to Rassie as it is the right thing to do. 

My main point here is that Berry deliberately did not engage with Rassie, at all. Gave him now feedback and that is exactly the point here. 

What is world rugby doing, did Berry just have a bad game where he blew poorly all game but the Lions got the better of it or was he bias. Either way, having so many errors and not getting dropped to a lower league until they can get their game up to standards. 


Nov 19, 2021, 14:12

"My main point here is that Berry deliberately did not engage with Rassie, at all"

Yep, this was definitely deliberate from Berry...…. sleeping at 5pm on a Sunday is crucial to ensuring you rest your active mind, to be able get all these calls correct in the next game

Nov 19, 2021, 17:25

According to the Report Berry gave Erasmus the feedback we have all read, which any reasonable person could only call friendly and constructive. The next day the tape was released into the public domain.

Nov 19, 2021, 17:57

Berry should never be allowed to take part any any first class rugby game in the future.

He has conceded to 17 errors in his control of the 1st Test with the BL, but the IRB have mentioned 23 of the 26 claimed by Erasmus.

How much more evidence do you doubters require to admit bias by the ref in that test?

If any ref makes that number of "wrong" calls in a test match or any top rugby game is it incompetence or flat out bias.

The answer is really do you dislike the Springboks to a degree in allowing these calls to continue or is sport supposed to be handled fairly by the officials.



Nov 19, 2021, 18:15

The fact of the matter is, that all but all professional Rugby teams find themselves very often at the wrong end of the stick, when it comes to Ref calls. It has been like this forever already...Do you see all these other rugby nations jump up, throw there toy,s out of the cot, make long Unnecessary Videos and play some kind of race card?? No you don’t....for goodness sake are you guys so blind and obsessed not to see this?

Nov 19, 2021, 18:17

The IRB have mentioned 23….where?

Nov 19, 2021, 18:22

Nic Berry does not pass the exam of international refs as clearly seen by the amount of errors...it's just plain common sense. He was a competent rugby player before his injury but has a teachers qualification but his oversights are just too much...who knows who is telling the whole truth...I cannot fathom that Peyper would be untruthful but be that as it may there have been been too many indescrepancies in his short lived carreer to throw huge question marks to his ability to read errors in game play.

Even if world rugby is so short of competent referees then it's up to them to set better conditions to attract them. Rugby can ill afford adjudicators that are not accurate.

Nov 19, 2021, 18:26


Nov 19, 2021, 18:42

Mozart,

           The number 23 I read on one of the blogs on this forum.

           Never mind if it was 1, 2 or 23 the point is Berry conceded to 17 .

            In plain English he `SCREWED UP`17 calls in a rugby test match.

            What do you call than.


           In good old rugby terms it is called `FUCKED UP` on 17 calls. 

           End of story.

Nov 19, 2021, 18:43

We actually haven’t looked at other refs with the same scrutiny. I’m betting if we took any of the recent tests, especially the Welsh/Fiji tests we would see a similar picture. 

The IRB can’t say this, but it’s highly likely.

Nov 19, 2021, 18:52

We are not discussing other refs in this case.

Rassie made a claim that disputed 26 or 36 calls made by Berry.

The IRB mentioned that he was correct on 23 of his disputes.

Berry the ref conceded that he made incorrect calls on 17 of the disputes.

Now how much more do you require to get of Rassie`s case!



Nov 19, 2021, 18:52

Go through each point, and show us where the Boks were reffed out of the game. Simples. The Kak Pack are now desperate to spin a narrative based on the number 23. "Look how big arez da thwee". Always dancing around the issue, never having a point to nail on the mast. 

Nov 19, 2021, 19:14

23 to my knowledge has never seen the light of day except in the South African press.

Nov 19, 2021, 19:16

I have not seen the video or seen the IRB report.

The numbers quoted  are from blogs on this site relating to the `Video Issue` which  have been reported.

If you have the facts that reflect differently go ahead and state them.

If not keep quiet.


Nov 19, 2021, 19:20

Well are you disputing the 17 Berry conceded.

Nov 19, 2021, 19:49

It was also reported that the IRB agreed with all but 3 of Erasmus’ points which was nonsense. Why don’t you print out my rebuttal of the tape and then watch it. Just to get the other opinion,


As far as the points that Berry conceded they were mostly innocuous. The ones where he felt he was in error he used terms like ‘disappointing call’.

Frankly I don’t think they were all bad calls eg the one on advantage being over. I think to some extent he was trying to placate Erasmus throwing him a few 50/50 bones…never dreaming he would go to mutually assured destruction.

Nov 19, 2021, 20:04

Desperate times for the Kak Pack. At least they have an excuse to fall back on if the Boks were to lose to England. A tenure bolster by excuses. 

Nov 19, 2021, 21:03


Mozart are you disputing the 17 calls that Berry conceded  and the number (what ever the number is) that the IRB agree with Erasmus on?

Also please don't change the subject such as "other refs " and the "IRB numbers" plus  "Berry's disappointing calls"  you  are entitled to your version of what transpired and so am I.

If the report stating that Erasmus has been sanctioned is correct and under appeal so be it.

Cheers for now.


Nov 19, 2021, 21:06

Exactly what points do you disagree with? 

Nov 19, 2021, 21:12

Yes I don’t believe the IRB have said they agree with any of the calls …although they say Berry appears very credible. All that IRB stuff started with a Raaport article quoting sources never identified. The IRB has said nothing about which calls were incorrect, to my belief.

Nov 19, 2021, 21:50

"Rapport is an Afrikaans-language weekly newspaper (released on Sundays) in South Africa and published by Media24. Its head office is in Johannesburg.[1] It is the second largest Sunday newspaper in South Africa after the Sunday Times.[2] Waldimar Pelser has been the editor since 2013."

Not exactly a fake news rag, but I know that even good news papers get things wrong at times....and 23 is only 6 off the 17 Berry conceded to, so it's quite possible that the 23 might actually be correct...

Nov 19, 2021, 22:26

Accurate and mature journalism in South Africa?


Nov 19, 2021, 22:40

It's better than you think...and of a higher standard than many 1st world countries...there's still a few things that work properly over here...media is one of them.

 
You need to Log in to reply.
Back to top