Double WC Springbok starters‘ win ratios

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Oct 14, 2020, 21:27

Vermeulen 72%

Willie 66%

Etzebeth 63%

Pollard 59%

Dud Allende 57%

Dud Toit 57%

Lomp54%


Coincidence or reflection of true contribution?




Oct 15, 2020, 01:03

Vermuelen and Willie are probably the best 2 match-winners, but they also did not play much during the Alister Coetzee era. Had they done so, their stats would be worse. 

Oct 15, 2020, 02:46

Good theory, but Kolisi played 15 tests during the Coetzee era....almost half of his starts. And his win ratio is 66%.

Oct 15, 2020, 09:30

Foolishness on top again.   Mozart stats do not win trophies - player contributions to all facets of play does.   The above is total BS as only to be expected from you.   For instance Du Toit started  in only 6 tests in the WC and won in 4 of those,  in other words his percentage wins is 75%  - where does your 57% comes from?   What else is new - you coming up with total worthless BS again is nothing new,. .        

Oct 15, 2020, 10:17

Have to disagree Mike 

If you look at the most memorable test matches where the Boks had a chance to win against the AB but end up loosing because a key player got injured. 

Habana - All Blacks - Newlands, scored 2 amazing tries and was on form that day, but got an elbow and limped off by half time

John Smit - Got tip tackled by Thorn who only got a yellow card and the AB won

Frans Pienaar - Got injured in the first half after the Boks were dominating and we end up losing

Having some of your game breaking players not on the field can lead to match losses 

I would 100% agree that Vermeulen is a match winner. To think he is 33, much bigger than Kolisi but plays the whole game. Enough said 

Oct 15, 2020, 16:46

It’s their total test career win records Wanker.....enough games to be statistically significant.

The standard view is players win records are totally out of their control. But Corn has it right.....if a player doesn’t influence the win record....there is no difference between players. So their win records do matter, especially in comparison to their peers. The Stormers are much more likely to win with Eben on the park for example.

The facts say the Duds haven’t been associated with Bok success and Lomp is a clear statistical loser.

Oct 15, 2020, 18:44

Stats when  used selectively and the BS shines through in this case too.  However, there is no relationship between the double WC nd the career.   Vermeulen was not playing in tests in the time Coetzee was in charge and missed the many losses suffered under that coach.   So again you are trying to promote garbage on site.    

So the stats says bugger-all on par with your initial support for the appointment of Coetzee and his flops as a coach.    Also your constant attacks on Erasmus as a coach.    One should always take your contributions as  totally worthless in every respect,             

Oct 15, 2020, 22:45

Last I checked, rugby was a team game

What the hell does individual win ratios tell you

Sweet fuck all about an individual player

Oct 16, 2020, 04:16

Disagree......if players can’t make a dent in  the win ratio measured over their whole career/normalized by the win ratio of contemporary colleagues... then they aren’t making a difference.


The Bok win record over the last 8 years, setting aside draws is 60 out of 94 games or 64%.....the Duds and Lomp are alarmingly below that level.

Oct 16, 2020, 06:08

Another repeat of worthless shit on site.     You do not take into account the disasters in 2015 when the Springboks lost most tests - even against Japan when they had 3 wins in 2014 and 2015 up to the WC and Vermeulen played 6 tests in the WC of which one was lost.   Vermeulen missed the pre-WC disasters totally as he was injured and came from the bench in the Japan disaster.   In 2016 and 2017 he did not play in a single test  and in 2018 he ducked out of the tests after the second test against England and only returned to play in tests starting with the Japan pre-season tests,

Under your favourite coaches  Meyer and Coetzee the Springbok performances in 2015 to 2017 was disastrous and missing out on tests in those three years made Vermeulen look good,  That is why your argument in this case is total BS,    The same applies to Pollard, De Allende and other players as well.   

So try something logical in future - all your latest attacks on Du Toit and De Allende failed because of the garbage you came up with and most of your descriptions were lies in any event.   Display of at least some rugby knowledge  would be helpful.  And your attacks on Du Toit and De Allende that has started in 2013 and 2014 are idiotic at best.      

Oct 16, 2020, 16:31

Wanker. The ‘attacks’ on the Duds prove one thing.....they have lowered the win ratio through long careers. The rest is blather.

Oct 16, 2020, 20:34

Mozart

If after 7 years of trying and all the time attacking the same players without convincing anyone ever (bar perhaps that co-idiot AO) -  is it not about time you stop inventing garbage to attack players on.    By now I believe people  know about your hatred of the players  purely because somewhere in  the past they presented a selection threat to the real duds whose selection you supported,   

Nothing new but meaningless and falsified interpretations came out in this for years now and O am frankly tired of having to correct your BS on site.        

 


   

Oct 16, 2020, 21:15

Ironic when your post is full of opinion and pejoratives like ‘attacking....inventing....garbage....hatred...meaningless....falsified.....correct’.

When all I have posted is a simple statIstical truth....correct that if you can Wanker. Or better yet go to your room with your wanking machine and get a little joy in your miserable life.

Oct 17, 2020, 02:59

Big players have big moments. What do Steph and Damian have? The cupboard is bare. No great tales of heroic moments. There are however reels of film displaying bad moments. Take Steph running into the wrong man, taking himself out of play in the biggest game of the season at that point in time. They simply don't cut it. The production isn't there either. Steph is the equivalent of Damian in how they stifle the fluidity of the team. Slow, predictable phase play. Poor defence. Neither will ever be world class. 

Oct 17, 2020, 03:30

They had their big  moments in the WC 2019. when real experts and not fools like you praised  them as players reserving the honors like happened  to the two players were rated as the best in the world in the positions they played in,  .    

You have  cheek to appear on this site and repeat your BS after I asked you for an explanation  about the suitability of Meyer an Coetzee to coach  tests teams after they were fired by their clubs due to gross incompetence,    Please answer to my request and stop beingh the total rugby ignorant fool on site,          

Oct 17, 2020, 10:51

Mozart

Statistics can be abused in a totally meaningless way and that is what you try to do here once again and it flops once again.     

Oct 17, 2020, 13:39

I don't need to talk about their club records when they have test records. This isn't hypothetical, it's a fact with verifiable data. That's why I win; you lose.

Oct 17, 2020, 17:07

Wanker one can’t abuse raw data....matches won/ matches lost.....it’s a fact. Somewhere in your for fog shrouded brain you recall somebody saying stats can be manipulated, which is true....but raw data is simply raw data


Which you  choose to ignore because you don’t like what is implied. The facts say unequivocally that playing the Duds is associated with a significantly lower chance of success. There may be other reasons for that.....or not. But the facts are indisputable.


Oct 17, 2020, 17:45

Especially when you put so much ball in their hands, and rely on them defensively. You can line all the data points together to better understand the nature of their contributions. Does that stand upto video scrutiny? Yes it does. It would be case closed, but the Church of Josè are too stubborn to accept the truth. 

Oct 17, 2020, 21:09

AO

If  the Club fired  them for gross incompetence on club level - how the hell can they better on test level?    Only fools will agree with your statement because you are the leader of the fools in your area.  

You can come up with some real data - but you are too stupid to understand that data.   In tyhe foist instance  to understand that strategic kicking is part and parcel of attacking rugby,   Secondly you think if kicks as routine practice under Meyer - the problem being that Meyer never heard or learned of the concept of Strategic Kicks.

The other thing you are silly is that you ignore the  most important objective of rugby - namely the scoring of tries and of those there were more than enough under Erasmus.   Carrying  the ball around without being successful in scoring tries is meaningless and under Erasmus there were more than enough of those,        

Oct 17, 2020, 21:29

The fact is that stats are abused by you and have been regularly so in the past,    First of all as Saffex pointed out that rugby is a team sport - teams lose matches not individual players,   Stats on winning for losing of matches rugby on that score are totally meaningless when coming to evaluation of individual players and even a seven-year old kid will understand that - but you are too rugby illiterate to understand that,

Secondly and that is most important function of those stats are for evaluating the coaches,   Both Meyer nd Coetzee was -

*   in the case of Meyer he was told that hos contract will not be renewed after 2015 - so he was effectively discarded as coach of the Springboks;

*   Coetzee was fired by SARU; and

*    both  were fired for gross incompetence by the clubs they subsequently coached.

If you really understand that you must agree with me that the specific stats you are trying to use - prove that both coaches were a reason for their effective termination of services.

In any event what you try to prove with those stats is why it is called Statistical Abuse,  You should be ashamed of yourself for what you did..                        

Oct 18, 2020, 00:37

You are too stupid to discuss this topic....refrain.

Oct 18, 2020, 06:51

Your deductions om this case was nor stupid - it was total rugby idiocy.   Whatever issue has been discussed for years now and especially those started by you have been turned by you into attacks on certain players and individual members - have you got nothing else to contribute?    

Oct 18, 2020, 16:15

Okay summarize your contributions......what have you come up with, other than Rassie good Coetzee bad, Stephanie good Vermeulen bad....and variations of the same.


What theories, what tactics, what game momentum analysis, what  player strengths and weaknesses?

Oct 18, 2020, 18:37

I never said that Vermeulen was bad - I merely said that in Meyer and Coetzee disaster years Vermeulen was out of the game for near to three years,   That was why your calculation is total BS.   May I add that the test history of Meyer and Coetzee from 2015 to 2017 was extremely poor and a discredit to SA Rugby  they are in fact the worst two coaches in the history of  Springbok Rugby, 

I do not waste time for near to seven years in criticizing players who are regarded by experts worldwide as top class players and your methods of trying to find incidence in games to criticize some players knowing full well that all viewers saw the games and see the shortcomings of some players that did make real mistakes in games, in respect of which you are deadly silent.   In the play-offs and final Le  Roux was poor in ball handling and if you were really interested  in performances  you would have dealt with that as well,    You obviously are only out to attack players you dislike.

Be assured your BS has after your seven years campaign has convinced only one member that you are correct and that is the village idiot AO who knows even less about rugby than a five year old kid.         

Oct 18, 2020, 20:18

You dumped on Vermeulen for years you disgusting liar.....deny it again and I’ll paste the Board full of your rubbish.

Oct 18, 2020, 22:37

You are the liar.    The only time I referred to Vermeulen was when he he did quit the Springboks squad in 2018 to go an play in Japan and not playing in the RC,   It had nothing to do with his performance as a player at all,     And then there was your routine tirade against De Allende about the AB try in the Wellington match and I pointed out that Vermeulen spilled the ball which caused the possession loss and the try.  I did not write  BS sagas about what happened the way you do.              

Oct 18, 2020, 22:41

Find the quotes - otherwise I would accept that it is just a  normal Mozart lie again.   

Oct 19, 2020, 01:48


Mar 20, 2017, 08:01

 blobbok

Would not be surprised if that is so - rugby has for him being on the back foot since he went to France - was very, very average in the games I saw him playing in.   

Oct 19, 2020, 01:50

Mar 26, 2019, 12:48

CC

I am afraid  that is what is going on in the case of Vermeulen - though I did put it as bluntly as you did,   I do not know why players want to end their careers playing in WC's and often enough use reputation and not performance as a means to get into the squad,  

In the end they are often passengers in the WC squad if the squad selection by Meyer in 2015 are borne in mind.   There were quite of number of players who were on the bench  or not be on the bench at all - with the result that many players had to play in every test played in the WC.   Easy to blame those unfortunates who had no rest games in the series at all.   


Oct 19, 2020, 01:50

Mar 26, 2019, 12:48

CC

I am afraid  that is what is going on in the case of Vermeulen - though I did put it as bluntly as you did,   I do not know why players want to end their careers playing in WC's and often enough use reputation and not performance as a means to get into the squad,  

In the end they are often passengers in the WC squad if the squad selection by Meyer in 2015 are borne in mind.   There were quite of number of players who were on the bench  or not be on the bench at all - with the result that many players had to play in every test played in the WC.   Easy to blame those unfortunates who had no rest games in the series at all.   


Oct 19, 2020, 01:51

Mar 04, 2019, 15:58

SB

In the third test he went AWOL and then skipped playing in The Rugby Championship series,   he was so-so in the EOYT tests.

I have my doubts about Vermeulen after his 2015 neck injury - he si mnot the same player heused to be and  at 33 he is not  really performing anymore. 

 

Oct 19, 2020, 01:58

May 13, 2018, 11:33

Beeno

I doubt very much whether Etzebeth will even play in one match over the next two weeks and only fools like Meyer would pick him without any rugby this year.  The problem is not the locks  - he has De Jager and du Toit - the likely lock combination.

 I think it is win the main with the props and with the loosioes.   The props were seriously problematic yesterday - so lets leave that one alone.

The problem is with the loosies - we know Kolisi will be picked at 6 - but he is normally utterly useless - so we need a really strong 7 and 8.   I think J-L du Preez will be one - but where the hell are they going to find a strong candidate in the absence of Whiteley.  Vermeulen was poor for his club and he will bring nothing to the side the way he has performed over the last two years.   


Oct 19, 2020, 01:59

Jul 26, 2017, 08:52

Careful guys -  Mozart would have a fit about your comments above.  His hero Meyer initially preferred Spies and only when Spies was injured selected Vermeulen.   Since 2015 Vermeulen was injured for months at a time - matter of fact for most of the seasons - but he was always Mozart's choice even though he has not seen any matches Vermeulen played for his club. 

I am sorry for the guy but at 31 and with his injury record he cannot be selected for the Springbok team in future.
 

Oct 19, 2020, 02:17

May 28, 2018, 07:30

                                                                                                                                                             Sorry - I did not check nd posted a second thread on the same issue.

However, any appointment of Vermeulen will be temporary - his form since his 2015 and subsequent injuries for Toulon was not really up to standard.  He is not the player we got used to prior to the WC and his expected performances in the June tests is likely to cause his demise as Springbok player in future.   

Oct 19, 2020, 02:21

Just a few from a huge list. You have been a broken record on Vermeulen .....I have likewise been critical of the Duds.....but unlike you I don’t pretend I never was critical.

So I repeat What have you ever said that’s original or analytical.

Oct 19, 2020, 09:08

The huge list is nonsense - those were the only comments you could find.   Two of the three dealt with the fact that Vermeulen barely played  rugby for three years and the fact that he ducked out of tests in 2018 and did not play in most of the tests that year - something I did mention myself as having written,   The third was an attack on Meyer - who used Spies at number 8 and not Vermeulen.   

The one where I did mention Toulon was clear as well - Vermeulen  due to injuries missed  at least 35% of the games the club played in the period and due to injuries was not available for Springbok selection.   Not all  French Top 14 games of Toulon was on SA TV and the few I did saw did not really show Vermeulen in a positive light.   He actually played for the Club in 68 games and in those he scored only 2 tries.   All I did say is that I saw nothing showing strong contributions by Vermeulen in the few Toulon games I did see - but I did not say he let the team down.        

Must say very poor effort on your part and not dealing with actual performances at all..   I never attack Vermeulen on the basis of actual performances on the field of play and never study games to find some instance where I imagined he made  mistakes - your habit for at least seven years years in matches when it comes to your pet hate players. 

In any event nobody could be as bad as you are when dealing with real rugby issues and misinterpretation of what other members write on site,  

        

Oct 19, 2020, 11:05

Absolute bullshit Moz, individual win ratios within a team game tell you sweet stuff all

A player is judged by his individual performance within in the team regardless of how well the side did as a whole.

A player could have an absolute blinder and still end up in a losing side. It happens all the time

 
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