2007 Team vs 2019 Team

Forum » Rugby » 2007 Team vs 2019 Team

May 03, 2021, 14:36

Having demonstrated that the 2007 Boks had the superior WC.....undefeated, an even point spread against opposition 3 ranking points higher in the pools, and a slightly better points spread against even opposition in the knockouts.....the final step is simply to compare the starting teams.


Percy vs Willie...........Percy

JP vs Kolbe...............JP

Fourie vs Am.............Fourie

Frans vs Allende.........Frans

Habana vs Mapimpi....Habana

Burch vs Pollard.........Pollard

F du Preez vs Faf........F du Preez

Oz vs Beast ..............Beast

Smit vs Bongi............Smit

Vd Linde vs Malherbe...Malherbe

Bakkies vs Etzebeth.....Etzebeth

Victor vs Lomp............Victor

Kolisi vs Schalk...........Schalk

Juan vs Dud Toit..........Juan

Rossouw vs Thor..........Thor


There are some close calls...Kolbe and JP, Faf and F du Preez, Os and the Beast, Bakkies and Etzebeth. But I picked a winner and those choices split evenly between 07 and 19.


And the results are beyond doubt, 10 of the combined team players come from our magnificent team of 2007. The combined team has perhaps the best looking pack I have ever seen picked.....with a loosie trio to dominate any opponents.


So there is not much more to say, and it’s sad that the constant trashing of our 2007 WC forced this rebuttal. But there it is....the 2007 WC team and their results are undoubtedly superior.

May 03, 2021, 15:21

Apart from a few ... there's no comparison ...

To be fair, Frans Steyn hasn't come close to the standard he produced that year. 

May 03, 2021, 15:46

If we were choosing an all WC team I’d put in Jean de Villiers. Jean had terrible luck at WCs but his performance against Oz in 2011 was outstanding in a losing cause and he has been our best 12 by far since readmission.

Throw in Andre Joubert at fullback and Joost at scrum half and you have arguably our best team in the new era.

May 03, 2021, 18:35

No proof in WC games of any top class performances in other  WC games,   My choice too - but his absence from  finals disqualifies him,    Despite his outstanding performance in 2011 the Springboks lost the game against the Aussies and struggled badly against the Welsh and left the WV campaign early.  

May 03, 2021, 18:56

Butch ahead of Pollard. Butch is the most naturally gifted SA 10 in my time following the game.

Faf is Januarie 2.0, but miles and miles behind Du Preez. It's actually depressing how poor our 9s are. Ever since Hougard came onto the scene we started to transition into 9s that don't have basic skills, but run fast. Kockott was the last test quality 9 we produced. Schreuder comes the closest.

For me 2013 Jean was his best self. I still rank Frans the very best, but Jean was world class and effortlessly mops the floor with Damian. Esterhuizen is the most talented 12 I've seen from SA, but he isn't as assertive as Fans or Jean. Jean is one of the most tactically aware players I've ever seen. 

It's actually amazing the Boks were able to do anything with such an uncompetitive lose trio. Thor was everything. So much was placed in the shoulders of a few. 

May 03, 2021, 19:49

Sure - Frans  was so poor  even the stupid Meyer would not select him  at center,  He should never have played ay center - he was an ideal full back and a flop at center,    Esterrhuien is not an international level center and after giving him a number of chances  to play for the Springboks found him seriously deficient  and did not pick him for the WC squad.   I am not sure he has enough in his top  storey to make him a success at center,  

Your repetitive BS on something you know anything about -but is both funny and tragic - the latter because it is too stupid of you to make rugby comments on suite,  

May 03, 2021, 20:07

Thor + the other two were better than Rossouw + Schalk and Juan...and Scalla and Juan is probably the best flanker combo in modern times...goes to show how good Thor is...most underrated player in world rugby IMO...should have been WPOTY a few times already. 

May 03, 2021, 21:51

My rankings

Percy vs Willie...........Willie. Percy was at the tail end of his career in 2007.  -(Rassie Team)

JP vs Kolbe...............A tie

Fourie vs Am.............Fourie 

Frans vs Allende.........Frans

Habana vs Mapimpi....Habana

Burch vs Pollard.........Pollard                  -(Rassie Team)

F du Preez vs Faf........F du Preez

Os durant vs Beast ..............Beast (Durrant was past his best at this stage). 

Smit vs Bongi/Marx ...........Marx                 -(Rassie Team)

Vd Linde vs Malherbe..........Malherbe           -(Rassie Team)

Bakkies vs Etzebeth.....Etzebeth                     -(Rassie Team)

Victor vs Lomp............Victor

Kolisi vs Schalk...........Schalk

Juan vs Dud Toit..........Du Toit                     -(Rassie Team)

Rossouw vs Thor..........Thor                       -(Rassie Team)


A split of 7/7 of Rassie/Jake.
7 Rassie Players out of 14 (as one was a tie). 

May 03, 2021, 22:05

My calls:

Percy vs Willie...........Willie

JP vs Kolbe...............Kolbe

Fourie vs Am.............Fourie

Frans vs Allende.........de Allende

Habana vs Mapimpi....Habana

Burch vs Pollard.........Pollard

F du Preez vs Faf........Faf

Oz vs Beast ..............Beast

Smit vs Bongi............Smit

Vd Linde vs Malherbe...Malherbe

Bakkies vs Etzebeth.....Etzebeth

Victor vs Lomp............Victor

Kolisi vs Schalk...........Kolisi

Juan vs Dud Toit..........PSDT

Rossouw vs Thor..........Thor

Jake vs Rassie.......Rassie

Marx should have stated ahead of Bongi and he is way better than Smit

Close calls all of them, except Willie vs Percy, Mapimpi vs Habana and Rossouw vs Thor

Biggest gap is Jake vs Rassie

May 03, 2021, 22:31

Juan was one of the best Boks. Steph, in his prime year, was 17th ranked flank in Super rugby and his test stats were equivalent. 

May 03, 2021, 23:17

Juan was a good player but NEVER world player of the year

PSDT is better, my call and NOTHING will change that

Just like the rest of my calls

May 03, 2021, 23:56

Of course nothing will change that, you are infatuated with dumpy clumpy unskilled simpletons devoid of skills. 

May 04, 2021, 00:09

Kindergarten Imbecile

If  Dave is  what you say he is and the players you  say are devoid of skills then I am afraid you have a problem called  brain-deficiency syndrome, a variant of which is a total lack of thinking ability and of being totally devoid of any knowledge of the game of rugby,.

     

  

May 04, 2021, 00:32

No Omelette I know my rugby unlike an ignorant boring prick like you

Only a fucking idiot would declare that the chosen world player of the year lacks skill

But best of all you are too fucking stupid to realise this very fact

Keep us entertained omelette

May 04, 2021, 00:49

Dave

You  are quite generous when it comes to some of the players who were in the 2007 final,   Ibly lookung at the two finals only I would not have the following in the lisy og players since theior contribution was totally insignificant in the final:-

.Fourie, Habana and Smith,   

I would rather put in Marx - who even nit starting had as a member of the bomb squad had plenty of playing time - example,  he played for about 60 minutes in the final,  If you only look at the final  the output and contribution of Fourie  and Habana was near to zero,  However, if the whole series are considered  then you are correct. 

Willie was excellent under high balls - but his ball skills let him down badly,   Hos passing game was deficient and he spilled or knocked  on two balls that would definitely have resulted in tries.    The one was a knock-on with an open Wales trylube ubn frnt of him and the iother in the final  where he had four attacking players outside of him with only twi English defenders to be beaten,.    I would prefer Montgomery to him. 

If the issue of White vs Erasmus is considered there is a huge difference as you so rightly pointed out,   I at one stage ranked the coaches since 1995  and Erasmus was the top rank rated A and White was ranked  E,    I think one  real problem  of White was he lacked insight in backline play  and  his consequent  bringing in Jones to help  with that component of the game.  However, in the final he  ignored the advice and the Springboks played a game that fitted the seriously deficient team like a glove.     .             

.  

May 04, 2021, 01:51

You ranked the coaches and Erasmus was an A and Jake was an E....care to share your methodology?

May 04, 2021, 02:19

I based my evaluations of caches 

*  on the performances of the  Springboks  especially against teams ranked higher than the Boks in games played;

*  the game plans used by the coaches and its effects on  the tests played; 

*   team selection;

*   the usage of both forwards and backline performances,

  

May 04, 2021, 10:37

Mike your take on Willie tells me you know fuck all about rugby

Percy has never been close to Willie, it’s a no contest

You are too stupid to know that Willie was involved in virtually every try scored by the Boks in the WC

His attacking vision is unmatched in the Bok side, but your narrow mind just sees the odd fumble. Ignorance of the highest level.

If Rassie is an A, Jake was not an F - I’d give him a B or C

May 04, 2021, 15:23

Dave 

Christie was the B rated coach - definitely not White,   The Springboks  was competitive in the first two years as a coach and then the bottom fell out in  2006 and 2007 before the WC.    I think that he csme within a whisker of being fired at the end of 2006 and the only thing that saved him was the fact that the WC was in 2007.

My problem with White always was two-fold - his lack of  ability to coach backlines and used it as an attacking weapon - to that end he tried to bring in  Jones to help in that regard, but after using Jones strategy  in the opening two matches  of th WC - the wheels came off afterwards  and the scoring of tries and defense became  a problem.     The performances against Tonga and Fiji was far below expectation.     In the final  White select the game plan that helped the English more than his own team.    The final showed deficiencies that was only off-set by the poor discipline of the English team..    The most noted was the total inability of th Springboks to score tries - the only time they were on attack near the tryline  the forwards only were used and there was a possession turnover.

Personally it was clear that White used a set game plan in his period as coach  in any team he coached and the reason why the wheels came off later in his coaching period was that the opposition coaches found counter-measures against his very limited game plan and the result is the wheels came off far too often wherever he coached.

He also seems to have favorites in the teams he coached and while his favorites could in his view do nothing wrong - the rest of the players were screwed.    That was what happened to the Sharks team in 2014 and he was told o resign or be terminated by them.    A person who treat the players like school children and not grown-ups  playing professional rugby..

There were far too many problem areas in his coaching  and that was confirmed in his subsequent coaching career,    Things at the Bulls may be better as Brits acting for the owners of the franchise will  keep a close eye on him and some of his past  follies may be eliminated.    

       

     

  

May 04, 2021, 20:16

Kitch. Ian Mac and Rassie are and were clever coaches that were innovative not in the group of traditional cloned coaches. Ian Mac according to Pieter Muller's (one of the best defensive centres  ever) opinion was the best coach he was tutored by. 

Kitch also had unconventional thinking patterns, that's why his strategy against the very superior 1995 All Blacks worked, Small closing down Lomu, Mark Andrews's at no 8 , instead of lock. The roles of Ruben and Francois Pienaar etc.

There were very good players in the Boks of 2007 granted and yes one can differ in opinion who was better than each other...realistically it's impossible to measure but the bottom line is results. Rassie's coaching had the best results.

May 04, 2021, 20:34

Jake White has won every tournament he has been involved in since he started working at the Bulls. It is 2 out of 2. 

Easily a top 10 coach in the world. 
Australia made a mistake not employing him to coach the Wallabies. 

May 04, 2021, 20:58

Jake is a bit of a d!ck, the Aussies won't like his hard nosed discipline...why do you think he left the Brumbies?...he knew his gig was up.:D

May 05, 2021, 00:59

White created the defensive philosophy Nienaber used. He isn’t trying to be popular. Nor is he running away from competition like the Director of Rugby. He loves the competition and gets results.

Jake ....36 wins ...17 losses....win ratio 68%

Rassie....17 wins....8 losses....win ratio 68%

So one  would tend to say they are the same. But Erasmus benefitted from one WC year in 2. WC years have a higher win ratio because of the minnow games.

If you measure Jake equivalently to Erasmus, his First Year plus his WC year .....Jake was 23 and 7 for a win ratio of 77% which crushes Erasmus’ 68%. 

Erasmus gets the best results? No and he is only in the game  if you don’t compare apples with apples.

May 05, 2021, 01:50

And  White's  team did not play minnow games at all?    Amazing the story Mozart manage to spin.    Mozart obviously of  years of chaos  under Meyer and Coetzee  resulting in a demoralized team,    The Springboks were rated 7 in the world and losses against Japan and Italy also did not help.    Add to that tthat Meyer insisted to play people despite their performances having deteriorated leaving serious gaps  in the team,     

Erasmus had to pick up the pieces to try and find players that could be real internationals an he went the right ay about it,      He selected  experimental teams to  play in some tests - like against the Welsh and the June 2018  third  test for example.  Some odf the players he gabe a number of chances to prove their abilities  and in the end he had the basis for a team to go to  WC,

White never had that kind of problem  to start off with,    but to make things equal  the way he is doing now is really amazing - he must have forgotten how he attacked me  fir using the same type of basis as he is doing now  when I used it to deal with the similarities between 2012 amd 2018.    Really amazing.

Take the fact that  England send a club level team to SA to play the Springboks in 2007 beiore the WC - that caused a media uproar at the time  -  Springboks played  -

*    played  17 tests in 2007';  of which

*    nine were against minnow teams - all won by the Springboks/

Of  the remaining 8 tests the Springboks won  5 and lost three  

Now compare that  with the 11 tests where the Springboks won 9, drew 1 and lost one. 

Erasmus gets the best results?  Especially  when you  compare apples with apples.    

                                            

May 05, 2021, 04:45

Apples with apples is Erasmus’ only two years....his first year and a WC year vs the same years for Jake. And the results are Jake 77%/ Erasmus 68%. I guess that makes Jake an A and Erasmus an E. 

May 05, 2021, 06:38

If you want to cherry-pick compare 2006 and 2007  with 2018 and 2019?       .   

May 05, 2021, 14:23

I suppose injuries to Schalk Burger (broken neck), Bakkies Botha (calf surgery), Jean De Villiers (cracked rib), Bryan Habana (cracked rib), Butch James (groin and knee), André Pretorius (groin), Joe Van Niekerk (C5 & C6 vertebrae), Jacques Cronje (cracked rib), Danie Rossouw (hamstring), Juan Smith (left quadriceps), Eddie Andrews (back), BJ Botha (back surgery), CJ Van Der Linde (Leg), Gurthro Steenkamp (broken hand), Pedrie Wannenburg (wrist surgery), Marius Joubert (fractured hand) among other lesser injuries had no impact on the Boks, huh?

Jake beat the All Blacks and Wallabies back-to-back with a makeshift team, especially the loose trio. The Boks won 82% of their games in 2007. So, where's the losing trend? Jake's work served the Boks for over a decade. 

May 05, 2021, 17:12

Jake is a fine coach...he always makes an impact with a new appointment...as does Rassie...IMO Rassie has better people skills though...he brings an extra dimension to the setup in that regard.

May 05, 2021, 17:47

Fair point Draad......Rassie does have better people skills and navigates the politics more smoothly. He would have picked Luke Watson and let him fail....and he wouldn’t therefore have dealt with the disruptions Jake faced in 2006 all the way up to the WC.

But I prefer Jake’s honesty.... he is a bit like Gary Player or Kevin Petersen, a fearless competitor. A winner, how we dislike that type of brash competitor. We prefer the modest, gracious loser....Ernie vs Gary. But if Ernie had Gary’s guts he would probably have won 20 Majors.

I don’t think Jake would have avoided competition in 2020, he would have been raring to compete. I prefer that attitude even if it occasionally rocks the boat,

May 05, 2021, 18:43

Jake is the Bill Belichick of Rugby. South Africans prefer to be pampered. It says a lot that the Aussies loved his approach. 

May 05, 2021, 19:04

Auge, I don't agree there. Mitchell had the same problem in Australasia as Jake. They don't take to heavy authoritarians...South Africans live with it...Buurman v Zyl types do well here. Jake will do better at the Bools than at the Brumbies...he wasn't a shoe in for the laid back Shark surfer culture though.:D

May 05, 2021, 19:15

Auge, I don't agree there. Mitchell had the same problem in Australasia as Jake. They don't take to heavy authoritarians...South Africans live with it...Buurman v Zyl types do well here. Jake will do better at the Bools than at the Brumbies...he wasn't a shoe in for the laid back Shark surfer culture though.:D

May 06, 2021, 00:38

Rassie is both a better tactician, selector and player manager than Jake ever was

I suspect having played at the highest level Rassie is also the better technical coach

Rassie is a far better coach than Jake ever was

Jake is middle tier when it comes to SA coaches

Top of the list are Rassie, Kitch, Mallett and Ian Mac

Jake, Meyer etc middle

PDV, Coetzse, Viljoen, du Plessis bottom

May 07, 2021, 00:20

Moz - a question - you say Jake is a competitor but he is on record saying we should not have played in the RC, as we were totally unprepared

What’s your take on Jake supporting SA rugby’s decision, not Rassie’s as you claim, to not play in the RC?

May 07, 2021, 01:09

Mozart

You are indeed  back to your normal lies about Erasmus stopping  the Springboks from playing in the test last year.    If a member made a remark on site that was without substance and dreamed u[ by somebody and the explanations on site  and  that person went silent and  came back months later made the same false story on this site that person is in fact a liar,   

Why do you lie on  site

May 07, 2021, 17:27

So who made the decision.....a bunch of suits. How did they make the decision? They were advised. By whom? Erasmus.

That’s how the world works. Just because you lie all the time doesn’t mean somebody else is lying when they hold different views....remember that.

May 07, 2021, 18:13

Herr Draht, what are you talking about? Jake never had issues with his players, his issue was the dishonesty when he was snubbed for a half baked fool for Wallaby job because he wasn't Australian. Jake's men respected and fought for him. They loved his approach. They didn't need slippers in the morning and molly cuddling like the poofs at the Sharks who fell apart after Jake was axed. No team is ever better after Jake departs. 

May 07, 2021, 18:24

Moz what’s your response to Jake supporting the decision by SA rugby, not Rassie, to not play in the RC?

May 07, 2021, 19:00

Mozart

You make an allegation based on a lie invented by you.   Insofar as test rugby is concerned there is a hugh number of factors to be taken into account starting with financial aspect,  the Government Policy on Covid  19  -  the latter allowing people to enter and leave SA  -   over which Erasmus have no say,   

Erasmsu would have consulted with the coaches as to player preparations and Jake White openly said he support the decision not to play,   the other major Unions would likely have said the same, but did not make their opinion  public the way White did,    Eeasmus is basically a diplomat - not a petty dictator.

Basically Erasnus would not convey anything bar an agreed reproach to the Board and that would have been the only impact he would have had on the decision taken .   

You have  no proof of anything to the contrary bar a prejudiced lot of BS you cooked up.    

                  

May 07, 2021, 19:20

Kindergartin  Imbecile 

White never had issues as to player relationship?

That was what in fact buggered up his coaching career wherever he went.    The 2007 Springboks generally did not have a high opinion   on his relationship  with the players and  after his contract  was not renewed,   Smith and the Du Plesssis bothers were  amongst a number who criticized him openly om that score.

Jake went   to coach the Brumbies and ended his contract there when he was ignored when the Aussies decided  to appoint the new coach and he missed out  - he left Australia in huff,    Hos reason was that he wants to be with his fdamily and a few weeks later joined the Sharks more than 1800  kms away from his home in Stellenbosch.  

He did not survive  for long as Sharks coach  - a player revolt started when the players refuse to sign new contracts with the Sharks if White remains as coach.   The players generally felt that eh treated players like school pupils,   

After he left  the Sharks White went to Montpellier after it became clear that his relationship  with the French players in the sqaud caused his departure to go to Japan.

           

May 07, 2021, 20:01

If White had said anything else it would have been a huge controversy and affected his ability to do his job.....that’s why he punted. As for Erasmus’ decision, it had nothing to do with advice he got. He decided (correctly) that the Boks were at a disadvantage.....and so he decided to run for cover. The Bargies also knew they were at a disadvantage...but like real rugby men they decided to compete anyway.

May 07, 2021, 20:48

Based on the games against Tonga and Fiji - but more particularly the final -  I would  not select a single player from the 2007 team if a combined team with the 2019 WC team be selected,   

May 07, 2021, 20:50

Mozart

Have you any factual info on what happened or are you spouting your usual lies on site?


May 07, 2021, 22:23

Moz that is fantastically weak

Jake said we should not play in the RC for the obvious reason that you don’t take on top tier sides having played a few tests against eachother when none of your players have played any rugby for months

It’s that bloody obvious, Jake supported the SA rugby decision as it was 100% the correct decision

May 08, 2021, 00:19

Jake said what he had to say. It was a cowardly decision desperately clinging to WC success....the ABs would never have walked away from a fight. We were better off than the Bargies and they came for the spirit of the game at a time the world needed a lift.

May 08, 2021, 00:23

We all know that Josè Erasmus understands that his damage limitation, paving over the cracks game plan is unsustainable and he ran behind his new flack jacket, Nienaber. He doesn't truly believe the Boks are _that_ good, to take on a real challenge. The greatest nail through the coffin of the fan girl club we have here. 

May 08, 2021, 01:02

Nope Jake is his own man and had no obligation to say anything but what he meant.

Your attempt to excuse Jake’s backing of the RC decision is weak and a classic case of clutching at straws

Jake was spot on - a decision supported by all astute followers of the game

You don’t spend 18 months taking a side from 7 to 1 to go throw it away in the name of stupidity

Spot on call

May 08, 2021, 01:07

Rassie stunted the Boks and had two key wins gloss over a rather unspectacular record. Needed the worst Wallaby side in 45 years to help outside of the WC. You are unambitious and dishonest.

May 08, 2021, 02:14

It’s totally consistent with abandoning the Boks at the 2007WC.....Erasmus is a self serving opportunist.

Playing the game is more important  than some ranking nobody really cares about. In the mind of neutral fans NZ still owns the game 

May 08, 2021, 05:06

Mozart

You  are back to shit deductions again. as to  Erasmus  abandoning the Boks in 2007 - not knowing any real facts about the situation in 2007.     The real possibility is that  Erasmus haa a  far more acceptable approach to players than the school mastery approach  of White,    That is likely why Erasmus could not get along with White and that personality clash resulted in the far more astute leaving the squad,     

After the 2007 WC a number of players made negative statements on their relationship with White and that  showed that the players disliked him  intensely  and was confirmed by what happened to the Sharks  players in  2014  when the players refused  to renew their contracts  of White is to remain as  coach,   

The issue was further clarified when after the medal ceremony  the players sent Kolisi  to ask Erasmus to join him in receiving the WC itself  -  which Erasmus refused,.    The handing over of the trophy was delayed by the discussion between the to delayed the handing over process,   not a single player over the last 18 months ever said anything about their relationship with Erasmus - they admired him and played for the team and that includes Erasmus as coach as well,   

So nobody bar you and other idiots think  nobody cares about the ranking of the Springbok team in work rugby,,     Is that why you did not mind when Meyer"s disastrous coaching in 2015 at one stage had the Springboks as the number 6 ranked team in the World and Coetzee  ended up with them at no 7.

And other than sheizters  like you ever claimed that New Zeraland is still the number 1 team in the world.     That  is apparently also your approach  when it comes to the Proteas team - the lower their ranking is the  happier you are as it opens the way to criticize players you know about and more importantly the players you know zero about,   

In another thread  I  suggested that you think before writing shit on site - but it seems that advice did nothing to what you come out in site.   Thois ois a typical example of BS spreding being totally achieved by you.    

May 09, 2021, 16:39

So tell me about how I beat Tsitsipas Pervert.

 
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